Comments on: Athens – Pasta Sokoklatina

By: Sam Sotiropoulos

Sam Sotiropoulos — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 20:29:48 +0000

Jacoba, no NOT a slap, please do not misconstrue my sentiments (and not that I think you have). For the record, my Honours B.A. was in Philosophy, and I did what amounted to an “undeclared” Minor in Classical Studies at York University in Toronto. I have met many wonderful people in academic circles, and I still audit courses at Universities here in Toronto, so I am not a miso-academic. However, I am not oblivious to what I can only characterize as a broader Culture War in some milieus within the walls of Higher Learning (so called). Other eminently more celebrated dilletantes have run across the same “proprietary” prejudices and remarked on them, so I am not alone in this observation. Indeed, you need only read up on what Heinrich Schliemann who discovered Troy, and Michael Ventris who deciphered Cretan Linear B (both “amateurs”) went through vis a vis their own contemporary academic counterparts in their day. The bias is real, and it cannot help being personal as it is among and between persons. All of that being said, I have noted and am hopeful that honesty and fair assessment may actually be back in the ascendancy in some scholastic circles, so I have not completely renounced the Academy and her denizens.

Peace be with you,

Sam

By: J @ JFN

J @ JFN — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:22:05 +0000

Hehe – was that a slap in my face, I felt there? We may be peculiar, but I am sure there are no personal agendas in historical discussions, how can there be? I think we all just interpret the facts as we see them and based on the evidence we find and choose to base our findings upon. To me it is the written word backed up by DNA evidence, others may feel diffently, but what the heck, does it all really matter?

I do agree that food is friendly, kind and forgiving – a true instrument of peace, if ever there was one.

By: Sam Sotiropoulos

Sam Sotiropoulos — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 17:48:02 +0000

Jacoba, the issue here (for me) is not about the earliest civilization, nor are we talking about fairy tales, after all the Greeks have Pyrrha and not Eve. Gastronomy and food writing was invented by the ancient Greeks and as a result we can trace the influence of Greek food on all of subsequent European and Middle Eastern culinary traditions. Though some people (especially a peculiar brand of academic that I have had the displeasure of continually running into due to the nature of my studies) have gone to extraordinary efforts to overlook and obfuscate the obvious for various reasons of their own; yet, the facts remain fixed and only await proper research, collation and presentation to shatter certain unfounded and ultimately malicious myths about the nature and origin of Greek cuisine and food culture. After all, while the Greeks and the Greek language are still around today, the same thing cannot be said about the Romans and their language. In any case, when I do publish my work on the topic, you will definitely have a chance to reconsider the matter as a whole. So, you are right, let us not get stuck on this issue as there so many more wonderful things to discuss that relate to food, its preparation and consumption.

Amiably,

Sam

By: J @ JFN

J @ JFN — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 11:59:31 +0000

After all, without writing there could not be communication and without communication we do not know who did what. The first people to write were the Olmecs, methinks. Their writing is 3000 years old and evidence was found as recently as 1999 in the form of the Cascajal slab, rescued from a quarry at Lomas de Tacamichapa.

Now to get back to the Persians and the Chinese ……… and we’re off the topic, so let’s just leave it there, no?

By: J @ JFN

J @ JFN — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 11:54:09 +0000

I own McCartney and, if you like, could mail you the scans …… there are a lot. Snail mail??

Oops Sam, I am not blaming here, or taking sides – I merely believe, absolutely, that we all influence one another and that the more food is subjected to outside influences, the better it gets. If you look at the all the food in all the world, you will (I have no doubt) find that the countries that have been invaded the most, governed by different people the most and are subject to constant outside influences always produce the best food!!

It would get so boring, otherwise and there would no development or improvement. Don’t you think so? I do believe, however, that while the Greeks are commonly believed to be the oldest civilized culture in the world, that cannot be entirely true. After all – where did Eve come from? Surely modern day humans have proved that Eve did not come from Greece – now did she?

By: Sam Sotiropoulos

Sam Sotiropoulos — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 11:13:48 +0000

With the exception of the Alcock book, I have looked for the other references you cite and was unable to find them; they are quite obscure texts. If there is anything you think I really ought to read from them could you scan it and email it?

Let me reiterate one point: Greek gastronomic influence on Turkish cuisine is primary, the Greeks did not appropriate the cuisine of the Turks, it was MOSTLY the other way around. There is loads and loads of evidence to support my position and I will be making the case in my own good time. Stay tuned.

By: J @ JFN

J @ JFN — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:51:17 +0000

Buy Mc Cartney, you’ll never look back!!

By: Sam Sotiropoulos

Sam Sotiropoulos — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 18:23:03 +0000

Thanks for the suggestions. I will look these up at the Reference Library.

By: J @ JFN

J @ JFN — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 06:13:49 +0000

Morning, read “The General History of the Huns” – particularly p 334 and then do yourself a favour and look for a book written by C.A. Mc Cartney called “On the Greek Sources for the History of the Turks in the Sixth Century”.

My absolute favourite is a book called “Food in the Ancient World” by Joan P. Alcock.

By: Sam Sotiropoulos

Sam Sotiropoulos — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 04:04:42 +0000

Just a quick follow up on my postings from this morning, you’ll have to excuse me, I was half asleep when I made them. In your response to my response you wrote about Turks originating from the Persian Empire. I immediately thought you meant the Mogul (Mughal) Empire as they did use the Persian language for administrative purposes and the like, but were not related ethnically to the Persians. So, in short, you were partly right, we were on one hand talking at cross purposes and about two different things. Anyway, the point I would like to make is simply this: so-called Turkish cuisine as we know it today is largely not Turkish in origin at all and much of it is actually Greek, though for some reason (perhaps the baksheesh or maybe the hashish?) many academics have pooh-poohed the idea and go so far as to bolster Turkish claims of gastronomic primacy vis a vis the Greeks! LOL Nothing could be further from the truth, and I am pretty sure you are aware of that so I won’t go into any more details on this matter at this juncture….time for bed.